Curse

Vexx007 · Oct 11, 2006, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Since GW and GvGing is becomeming my obsession and I want to perfect the build that we are running in GvG, I would really like you guys opinion on the following.

The build we are using at the moment is:

W/A Death Charge Hammer
W/E Bulls Charge Sword
R/Me Cripshot
R/W Melandrus
Me/Mo E-Surger
Mo/A BLight
Mo/A BLight
E/Mo Air Flagger

We all know more or less what each character does in this build so I wont go to much into the skills, except for the W/E.

The W/E sword guy currently uses:
- Frenzy
- Shock
- Sever
- Gash
- Final Thrust
- Bulls Charge [E]
- HS
- Rez

What I want to know is, in a pressure based build, what would you run? The sword guy or an Axe Warrior?

Why Im asking is because Im not to much of a fan of the sword guy. Except for spreading bleeding and the conditional knockdown of BC, he's main damage skill, Final Thrust, requires the target to be below 50% health. Wouldnt the upfront damage of the Axe Warrior (Eviscerate, Executioners) be preffered or even better?

I though of changing him to Axe with something like:

- Shock
- Frenzy
- Eviscerate [E]
- Executioners Strike
- Sprint
- Shields Up!
- HS
- Rez Sig

The reason for Shields Up! is to allow this guy to go solo base ganking, maybe with assistance from the CripShot but prefferbly without. We tried this in a scrimmage but he had a bit of problems with the Knights. Archers were no problem at all. Do you guys have any comments or ideas?

DieInBasra · Oct 11, 2006, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Bulls charge war puts out alot of pressure. I'd change your hammer to an axe, honestly. Hammers are great in adreno spikes, not as great in pressure builds, esspecially with deaths charge. If you could post the entire build though, that'd be helpful. I'm guessing you have draw on your memo? Even with, sticking plauge touch on the BC couldn't be a bad idea, he can overextend for flag runners pretty well with that.

Vexx007 · Oct 11, 2006, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Thanks for the reply DieInBasra. I like some of your ideas.

We do have Draw on the Me/Mo. We actually like the W/A because it causes a lot of disruption (ie knockdowned monks), and is quick to hit on a low health opportunity target.

I love your idea of running Plague Touch on the Sword Guy for overextending and maybe do a bit of base ganking as well! Now why didnt I think of that

The only problem I have with that is that we will lose one interupt/knockdown at the main group. I will discuss it with the guys tonight. I will get the full build up on gwshack ASAP and edit this or my previous post.

Keep those commens/ideas comming

EDIT: Build as requested. GWShack is moving severs.

DC Devastating Warrior
Warrior/Assassin

Strength: 13 (12+1)
Hammer Mastery: 15 (12+3)
Shadow Arts: 3

Death's Charge (Shadow Arts)
Frenzy (Warrior other)
Devastating Hammer [Elite] (Hammer Mastery)
Crushing Blow (Hammer Mastery)
Fierce Blow (Hammer Mastery)
Bull's Strike (Strength)
Rush (Strength)
Resurrection Signet ()

Shock Axe Warrior
Warrior/Elementalist

Strength: 9 (8+1)
Swordsmanship: 15 (12+3)
Tactics: 11 (10+1)
Air Magic: 2

Shock (Air Magic)
Frenzy (Warrior other)
Sever Artery (Swordsmanship)
Gash (Swordsmanship)
Final Thrust (Swordsmanship)
Bull's Charge [Elite] (Strength)
Healing Signet (Tactics)
Resurrection Signet ()

CripShot Ranger
Ranger/Mesmer

Expertise: 16 (12+4)
Wilderness Survival: 10 (9+1)
Marksmanship: 10 (9+1)
Illusion Magic: 3

Apply Poison (Wilderness Survival)
Crippling Shot [Elite] (Marksmanship)
Distracting Shot (Expertise)
Savage Shot (Marksmanship)
Debilitating Shot (Ranger other)
Distortion (Illusion Magic)
Troll Unguent (Wilderness Survival)
Resurrection Signet ()

Melandrus Arrows Ranger
Ranger/Warrior

Expertise: 16 (12+4)
Wilderness Survival: 10 (9+1)
Marksmanship: 10 (9+1)
Tactics: 3

Melandru's Arrows [Elite] (Wilderness Survival)
Distracting Shot (Expertise)
Savage Shot (Marksmanship)
Debilitating Shot (Ranger other)
Whirling Defense (Expertise)
"Shields Up!" (Tactics)
Nature's Renewal (Wilderness Survival)
Resurrection Signet ()

E-Denial Mesmer
Mesmer/Monk

Fast Casting: 9 (8+1)
Domination Magic: 15 (12+3)
Inspiration Magic: 10 (9+1)
Protection Prayers: 9

Energy Surge [Elite] (Domination Magic)
Energy Burn (Domination Magic)
Signet of Weariness (Domination Magic)
Shatter Enchantment (Domination Magic)
Drain Enchantment (Inspiration Magic)
Draw Conditions (Protection Prayers)
Aegis (Protection Prayers)
Resurrection Chant (Healing Prayers)

BL Monk
Monk/Assassin

Divine Favor: 14 (12+2)
Healing Prayers: 9 (8+1)
Protection Prayers: 9 (8+1)
Shadow Arts: 7

Blessed Light [Elite] (Divine Favor)
Gift of Health (Healing Prayers)
Signet of Devotion (Divine Favor)
Reversal of Fortune (Protection Prayers)
Mend Condition (Protection Prayers)
Protective Spirit (Protection Prayers)
Dark Escape (Shadow Arts)
Return (Shadow Arts)

BL Monk
Monk/Warrior

Divine Favor: 14 (12+2)
Healing Prayers: 9 (8+1)
Protection Prayers: 9 (8+1)
Tactics: 7

Blessed Light [Elite] (Divine Favor)
Gift of Health (Healing Prayers)
Signet of Devotion (Divine Favor)
Reversal of Fortune (Protection Prayers)
Mend Condition (Protection Prayers)
Spirit Bond (Protection Prayers)
Dark Escape (Shadow Arts)
Return (Shadow Arts)

Air Flag Runner
Elementalist/Monk

Energy Storage: 11 (10+1)
Air Magic: 15 (11+4)
Healing Prayers: 10
Protection Prayers: 1

Blinding Flash (Air Magic)
Lightning Orb (Air Magic)
Windborne Speed (Air Magic)
Ether Prodigy [Elite] (Energy Storage)
Healing Breeze (Healing Prayers)
Heal Party (Healing Prayers)
Extinguish (Protection Prayers)
Aegis (Protection Prayers)

JR · Oct 11, 2006, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Have a read over of this thread:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10010209

Vexx007 · Oct 11, 2006, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Thanks JR but I have allready intensively studied that thread

What is your opinion on the topic?

Muppet87 · Oct 11, 2006, 02:42 PM // 14:42

I would suggest taking out GoF on one of your Blights and putting in an infuse.

I would run Boon + Blight but thats just me XD

Greedy Gus · Oct 11, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Swords are great finishers in pressure builds. They start by applying pressure via sever & bull's charge or charge, and then can generate quick solo kills on degened targets with a quick gash/final. Running two sword wars is brutal on the enemy team, because it's hard for them to keep track of where both wars are and who they can kill at any given moment.

However, it really requires some good degen/pressure being output on the enemy, because the conditional/expensive nature of gash and final mean you really rely on your teammates damage to start you up.

If your rangers are unable to consistantly push and shut down the enemy's heal party, aegis, etc. as well as spreading degen well, you're probably better off with some sort of axe war who can apply their own constant pressure (evis + exe spam, bull's + shock, etc.).

Thom Bangalter · Oct 11, 2006, 04:28 PM // 16:28

The problem with swords are, it requires too much time to get a spike off. The spike window for an opponent is about 3 seconds or less, so in that time you need to get the deep wound on and a follow up attack as fast as possible.

However, since you showed that the full build is a pressure oriented build, It seems to me that a sword warrior fits in quite nicely, and hammer is tremendous pressure, so I think what you're running right now is pretty solid.

The only problem is, I have no idea why the mesmer is in there. He kinda e denies, and he kinda assits at the spike, but he offers little utility. You'd be better served with a flagstand ele with flash, a second heal party, draw, and maybe extinguish.

DieInBasra · Oct 11, 2006, 10:51 PM // 22:51

I don't understand why you'd take a hammer over an axe tbh. In a pressure build, that is. All your sacrificeing by switching him to a normal axe guy(maybe with prot strike and distblow) is the adren charged KD, and the ability to pop out of no where, which isn't terribly useful if you aren't adrenospikeing. You'll have shock there instead of dev, which you can decide if you want to be punished by exaustion and keep them on thier backs, and waiting twenty seconds between shocks isn't much differant the dev hammer charging.

You ask why the mesmer is there and then give two great examples, as well as say he has little utility with draw conditions and fastcast res. Wha? A war and a mesmer is a really strong duo "spike", and enchantment hate is always welcome when vs smite. I'd keep it in there, though I strongly recomend distortion over ageis. Strongly. I remeber one guild had a similar build to this, can't remeber who. Anyway, they had two ranger, two wars and a mesmer, and who needs flash if they're all hard/have distortion/are ninja monks.x

Teh Mighty Warrior · Oct 12, 2006, 12:58 AM // 00:58

The way your build is set up, I would definately run 2 swords, one with Charge and one with Bull's Charge. Plauge touch would probaly be ideal, it would free up space (and energy) on the mesmer for shame, diversion, or blackout, but shock is a nice pressure skill. Depends on the skill of the mesmer and your team communication. Hammer is definately not what you would want in this build. Sword fits in nicely in a condition/pressure build.

As far as the rest of your build goes, it looks pretty solid. I suggest bringing either diversion or CoF with the meta heading towards caster spike. NR on your melandru's probaly won't do much for you. Too easy to kill without a dust trap, and you have no oath shot to recharge it. I usally like dual shot on the melandru's, good damage if you dual shot an enchanted target. Bringing 2 Blight's is starting to get a bit risky with the way the metagame is heading (caster spike), 1 boon 1 blight is the way to go in my opinion.

Vexx007 · Oct 12, 2006, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Thx for the replies guys! Some of the stuff really got me thinking.

@Muppet87: I really dont like Infuse on a Monk. In our previous build (adrenaline spike) I use to play flagstand Air E/Mo. All I would do is identify the Infuser, we do a spike on some other target, and me LOrb+LStrike on the Infuser. On our part of the ladder that usually results in a kill

@ Greedy Gus: I really like your last comment. I am playing one of the rangers, and I can, in my opinion, shut down most Heal Parties and Aegis's fairly good. The thing with our second ranger is we havn't gotten someone to play him on a consistent basis, and because of that lacks the necessary experience. We all know rangers are easy to play but difficult to master. Your comments echos my thoughts on the Axe Warrior.

@Thom: We saw this slot in the team more as "utility slot". We experimented with a lot of character builds here, even a Fragility/Virulence Spiker

We kinda liked the total e-denial that the 2xDeb Shot and the Mesmer causes. I have seen Monks degen to death. However, after last nights games I think a Flashbot at the flagstands would have been perfect. Sometimes I hate rock,paper,scissors

@DieInBasra: Once again you make a really good point. I think we must definately try that out. I really-really like your reasoning

@Teh Mighty Warrior: TBH, I dont see the benefit of running a Charge Warrior in this build. Plague Touch on our current Sword Warrior is ideal and I am seriously considering changing him to that. Im not to sure about changing our Mesmer to what you suggested. At the moment he is designed to E-denail extensively and remove enchantments, with some additional utility like keeping our Warriors clean and a hard rez. I love distortion (and Diversion) but I am not sure if (and where) I should try to work it in. Subbing Aegis for Distortion is something that I am struggling with. If I were to sub it for Distortion would it still be worth it to run the Aegis on the E/Mo? As for the Ranger, I feel that a well placed NR does not need a Dust Trap and so far have done more good than harm to our build

Dual Shot on an enchanted target is good but I dont see how Dual Shot can sub any of the other skills on the bar at the moment.

CrispyCritter · Oct 12, 2006, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Since we're running a build that's kind of similar to yours, I'll offer some suggestions.

1) Although the hammer war is OK, he seems more spec'd for a spike build than for a pressure build. I'd suggest a Disruption Axer in his place, which looks something like this:

Axe 16
Str 13

Executioners
Eviscerate {E}
Prot Strike
Bull's Strike
Wild Blow
Distracting Blow
Rush
Res Sig

Distracting Blow gives you some disruption, and even if you're playing against Obs. Flame spike, you can Wild Blow them out of Resolve and then interrupt them. Wild Blow is also useful against trappers and Me/A flag runners w/ Shadow of Haste.

When you want to kill something, build your adrenaline and get in Rush. When your target starts kiting, hit him with Prot Strike > Bull's Strike > Executioner's > Eviscerate > Prot Strike. Note that you'll need at least 10 energy to start the combo, and it helps to bring a Zealous mod to keep your energy up. The reason to use Prot Strike immediately after Evisc. is that it's actually you're next hit that triggers the Deep Wound, so you want to follow up as quickly as possible.

2) Rather than the Melandru's guy, I'd run an Oath Shot Trapper. Maybe something like this:

Ranger/Warrior

Expertise: 15 (11+4)
Wilderness Survival: 11 (10+1)
Tactics: 10

Debilitating Shot (Ranger other)
Oath Shot [Elite] (Expertise)
Whirling Defense (Expertise)
Barbed Trap
Dust Trap
"Shields Up!" (Tactics)
Nature's Renewal (Wilderness Survival)
Resurrection Signet ()

This makes it easier to keep Nature's up, and having Shields Up! on an Oath Shot guy is h4x. You do lose a couple interrupts, but the traps would add a little defense to the build, and they still do damage.

3) For the mesmer, I would give him Blackout and Distortion. Drop Aegis and probably Shatter as well, as they're both 15 energy skills and I don't see either being all that useful in a pressure build. I might also recommend Ressurect over Res Chant, simply because it's faster and less likely to be interrupted. Also, Power Drain gives you twice as much energy as Drain Enchant, although I suppose it is nice to have an enchant strip.

4) You might consider bringing Blackout on the Cripshot as well. It would probably force you to drop Unguent, which means you're guy wouldn't be able to solo as well, but Blackout is a really nice skill to have. It's useful against warriors to remove their adrenaline, and it's useful against Obs. Flame spikes. It's also fun to alternate Blackouts on a monk while you have both your warriors beat on the other monk. Up to you, but I <3 Blackout.

5) As for your monk bars, you should realize that not running any energy management means you'll likely get pwned by E-denial, as well as by heavy pressure builds. The stances are nice against adrenal spikes, but I would really debate having both your monks be Mo/A.

Vindexus · Oct 13, 2006, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Dragon Slash warrior + Dev hammer IMO.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 13, 2006, 07:12 AM // 07:12

I just think every build should have blinding flash. Even nr/tranq would benefit, just bring second wind.

Vexx007 · Oct 13, 2006, 07:57 AM // 07:57

@ CrispyCritter: After some testing yesterday (before you replied) we decided that we really love our hammer guy, and now you post a build that at first glance has huge potential in our build. We will test that today

Dont you miss the extra knockdown?

As for the Trapper Guy. I originally had this guy instead of the Melandrus Ranger. The guild has issues with a trapper and didnt really like it so......Enter the Melandrus Ranger.

@ Vindexus: We tested that yesterday (before your reply) and we really liked what we saw. The funny thing is that our sword warrior wanted to try a Dragon Slash Warrior for quite some time now, but I have written it of because of no Deep Wound

Would you drop the Rez Sig on the Dragon Slash for Plague Touch to give this guy the ability to go NPC ganking?

@ Thom: If and when we are ahead at the flagstand, or if we manage to get chain kills and steam roll the opponents the flagrunner's BFlash comes in very handy, I do agree. But to sub the e-denial mesmer for a flagstand Flashbot is something I cant do

The way I see it is that the flashbot is more of a defensive character who assists in spikes with LOrb and LStrike, where as the Mesmer cause huge pressure by draining the monks of energy. Since this build relies mostly on degen conditions, what will be more usefull at the stand?

JR · Oct 13, 2006, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx007

@ Vindexus: We tested that yesterday (before your reply) and we really liked what we saw. The funny thing is that our sword warrior wanted to try a Dragon Slash Warrior for quite some time now, but I have written it of because of no Deep Wound

Sever Artery -> Gash -> (*Sun and Moon Slash - >) Dragon Slash.

*optional

Thom Bangalter · Oct 13, 2006, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx007

@ Thom: If and when we are ahead at the flagstand, or if we manage to get chain kills and steam roll the opponents the flagrunner's BFlash comes in very handy, I do agree. But to sub the e-denial mesmer for a flagstand Flashbot is something I cant do

The way I see it is that the flashbot is more of a defensive character who assists in spikes with LOrb and LStrike, where as the Mesmer cause huge pressure by draining the monks of energy. Since this build relies mostly on degen conditions, what will be more usefull at the stand?

I think two copies of deb shot should be enough, and heal party is awesome.

Vexx007 · Oct 13, 2006, 09:15 AM // 09:15

I just realised that I was talking complete and utter nonsense! Gash causes Deep Wound! Doh! For some stupid reason I have assosiated a Dragon Slash Warrior with no Deep Wound....strange

@ CrispyCritter: Tried the Axe Warrior like you posted. I like it alot but I dont know if it will replace our hammer guy.

@ JR: Personally I like S&M Slash alot in the build. Cant I make Frenzy optional

(But thanks for the tip)

@ Thom: If I remember the math correctly (and I might be wrong here), two Deb Shots on a monk every 10secs allows for no energy regen. As far as I can remember a monk regens +-20E in 10secs and the 2xDeb Shot drains that. This usually causes a lot of problems, unless the monk is a master weapon switcher, especially on a Mo/A. The theory is if the 2 Rangers can e-denial a monk and the Mesmer e-denial the other, and with bleeding and poison on the whole team along with 2 Warriors dealing damage, their energy reserves are going to become severely strained causing pressure. Throwing a Flashbot in there would not be as effective I believe since a Flashbot is more of a defensive character. But as I said this is only theory and in theory a Paladin Wammo is un-killable

comonnow · Oct 13, 2006, 09:18 PM // 21:18

[QUOTE=Vexx007
@ Vindexus: We tested that yesterday (before your reply) and we really liked what we saw. The funny thing is that our sword warrior wanted to try a Dragon Slash Warrior for quite some time now, but I have written it of because of no Deep Wound

Would you drop the Rez Sig on the Dragon Slash for Plague Touch to give this guy the ability to go NPC ganking?

[/QUOTE]

rush/frenzy/sever/gash/dragons/plague touch/rez sig/bulls strike or heal sig